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starting a new thread to discuss having a retro du...
# development
w
starting a new thread to discuss having a retro during Pants team meetings (previously floated here: https://pantsbuild.slack.com/archives/C046T6T9U/p1658168200926049?thread_ts=1658167829.951119&cid=C046T6T9U)
as mentioned over there, some of the current agenda items could be proposed dynamically via the retro (particularly those that are not “broadcasty”), so i think that adding a 30 or 45 minute retro to some of the team meetings (can adjust frequency based on how useful it seems) would be really helpful.
b
I'm down
w
cc @hundreds-father-404, @busy-vase-39202, @curved-television-6568 who chimed in in the previous thread
b
45 minutes of retro about a 60-90 minute meetup seems like rather a lot. I see you mentioned doing it less frequently than every time. But I wonder how useful it is to do a retro about a single meetup that took place 30-60 days ago.
h
To clarify, is it a retro about the last month of Pants development/community? Not a retro of the meeting itself
b
Keep in mind it's a meetup, not a meeting. It's meant to develop morale and team cohesiveness as much as inform. It's not strictly intended to be business.
w
To clarify, is it a retro about the last month of Pants development/community? Not a retro of the meeting itself
people can choose to discuss anything related to Pants, but my expectation is that it would be mostly the first thing… there will likely be less meta discussion.
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h
Cool, then yeah I think that makes sense to do for 30 minutes or so
w
But I wonder how useful it is to do a retro about a single meetup that took place 30-60 days ago.
@busy-vase-39202: the retro is not for the meeting itself: rather “for the work going on in the community since the previous retro”
b
Ah, good question Eric. If it's about the project as a whole, I suggest adding a quarterly separate meeting devoted to that. Since the meetup is on the 3rd Monday of the month, perhaps that around the 1st week of the quarter?
w
Keep in mind it’s a meetup, not a meeting. It’s meant to develop morale and team cohesiveness as much as inform. It’s not strictly intended to be business.
imo, structured discussion in the shape of a retro goes a long way toward understanding one another’s feelings about things and building cohesiveness. arguably more than presentations on various topics (that’s more of a meeting in my mind)
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b
Or every other month, or whatever other pacing makes sense. This just sounds like a distinctive need that needs quality time, and tacking it onto the meetup would stretch the length beyond the average person's limit of 90 minutes max attention span.
h
I think it could be useful every meeting for about 30 minutes! A somewhat informal discussion of "How do you feel about the last month? Or this upcoming month?" I like that it invites many people to contribute, not only the presenters
w
I like that it invites many people to contribute, not only the presenters
yea, i think that this is important. while a fixed agenda is definitely also important, some amount of space for more free form discussion to build cohesiveness is sortof exactly what it sounds like this meeting is for.
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b
We've been running about 1:15 length. So arguably there's 15 minutes of bufffer time available for that. If it needs to be longer, it should have a dedicated meeting where it can be the focal point.
h
I agree with capping meeting at 90 minutes. Maybe we could limit presentations and "planned discussions" (like deprecation policy) to closer to 55-65 minutes, so we have 25-35 for informal retro?
w
@busy-vase-39202: as mentioned above, i think that some of the existing agenda items could be proposed in the retro instead… discussion topics rather than presentations basically.
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for example, from this past meeting, i think that the deprecation discussion would have been a really good retro topic
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b
I'm rushing things along the whole time, with an eye on the clock. The meeting is as short as I'm comfortable making it without marginalizing people who don't talk fast.
b
This topic matters a lot to me. I think we could use more cross-pollination and cohesion
w
@busy-vase-39202: a relevant analogy here is to an unconference: a retro is pretty close to a single-group unconference.
@bitter-ability-32190: would you prefer a separate meeting, or using a portion of the existing meeting?
b
As long as there's space for those topics, I don't really care 🙃
An example being cross-pollination of the debug adapter support, or asset inference for Python. I'd love to drive support of those features outside of python
b
Sorry, been in a meeting. Catching up on the convo.
Agree re this. Creating an additional gathering, that keeps all gatherings under 90 minutes is more effective at cultivating goodwill and good ideas than keeping people in their seats so long that they get restless, out of steam, or distracted by bodily needs. After 90 minutes, people need a break for bathroom, food, stretch, mental reset. An unconference format typically is giving those breaks every 30-90 minutes, so it's not analogous. One option could be to hold the retro meeting 15-30 minutes after the meetup. Creating space for people to opt to attend one or the other, while ensuring a needed break to those who attend both. However, keep in mind that the meetup already ends at 6:30pm London time, so I think piggybacking like this has the risk of losing participants in Europe and beyond. Overall, I still think the best way to cultivate wide participation is to give this its own dedicated day and time at whatever cadence makes sense. https://pantsbuild.slack.com/archives/C0D7TNJHL/p1660681992017289?thread_ts=1660680703.211899&cid=C0D7TNJHL
Retros are inherently backward-looking. The meetups are forward-looking. There are topics that overlap, but I think it's really worthwhile to separate out the "here's what worked and didn't about X lately" and the "having reflected on what we learned at the retro, here's the new approach we're considering for X" conversations. It's not duplication; it's different phases of strategy development and implementation.
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